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11:05:2005 Entry: "Stan : Disagreement Dream"

Disagreement Dream

My father has been deceased for over 8 years, and he seems to arrive in my dreams more and more as time passes.

In this dream we were going to a greenhouse, or more of a sort of landscaping company. My adopted father (as not to be confused with my bio. father) was driving us in a car to this plant place where I wanted to look at the house plants. I expressed my desire to be let off at the front of the building where I could look for cactus and succulent plants. He said fine, but when we arrived he kept driving without letting me out. He was headed for the outdoor part of the landscaping company where all of the trees were growing in large pots. I asked him to stop the car so I could walk back to the house plant area and he just looked at me without saying anything.

I looked over at the trees and say several high school coaches and teachers shopping there and talking with each other. At that point I opened the door and jumped out of the car while it was still moving. I became unhappy because I wasn't let out at the front of the building, and I didn't think my request was unreasonable. I was even more frustrated that when he looked at me without saying anything - as if - it seemed to me that he had already made up his mind that both of us were going to look at trees. It's frustrating to be made to go somewhere when we don't want to even as children, but I wish he would have then not agreed to let me off at the front of the building to begin with.

Anyway, I didn't wake up when I jumped out of the car and I walked back to the house plant area. I didn't find much in the way of cacti, but there were a few hen and chick looking succulents. They were interesting and I wondered if I could propagate them by rooting leaves, but I didn't try to buy them. Then I met Ann in the green house and we looked at plants for a while. That's when the dream ended, and it didn't go long enough for me to see my father again or any of his friends - which were many of my high school teachers and coaches.

I think this dream was about a deep and long standing disagreement my father and I had, and this completely undermined our relationship for the rest of his life. I willingly agreed to be involved with athletics in junior high school with the agreement (as I understood it at least) that high school athletics would be optional. I think my performance in junior high it should have been clear to everyone that I lacked many important athletic abilities like poise, balance and a powerful adrenaline charged second wind.

The dream seems to reflect on the misunderstanding we had and it drove us apart for many years to come.

I'll never really be able to say if my dad was right or not in any absolute sense, but I always have to remind myself that I did gain a lot of self discipline from athletics. The other possibilities remain unknowable, but I think the dream does represent some sort of completion in the conflict within myself.

35 Comments

If you ever are struggling with anger and depression like I do over your father(s), you could always have an Uncelebrity Death Match between the two! But I'll let you write that one, unless I get really inspired. We could sure have fun with religion and politics with those two! Yeehaw!

After I read this, I couldn't help think of the time we were last in Colorado and we were with Dave and Suzy looking at greenhouses. But I was also reminded of how my dad once took off with me getting into the back seat of the car while it was moving and I was dragged along for a short ways until I got out and walked home. This was after church and all he could think of was his fucking church and he couldn't think of his family or wellbeing or anything. What a horrible horrible time. What a bad father.

Posted by Ann @ 11:05:2005:06:05 PM CST

On the off chance that we decide to do a Deathmatch Dad thing for you, what shall their Fighting Names be?

Why can I not get the line "Luke (Stan), I am your father" out of my mind?

Posted by Ann @ 11:05:2005:07:06 PM CST

In fighting aginst the 'dark side' I never would have imagined....

Posted by Stan @ 11:05:2005:07:10 PM CST

If you had known back in 1983, like, if for example on your birth certificate under "father" it said "Darth Vader" instead of "Jedi Knight", so to speak, of course, how would that have changed our lives?

(Gawd, I can't believe I'm using Star Wars references as examples here)

Posted by Ann @ 11:05:2005:07:32 PM CST

In fighting aginst the 'dark side' I never would have imagined....

Posted by Stan @ 11:05:2005:07:34 PM CST

I would have remained consistant in my beliefs. I remember my mother telling me (and my father in an arguement) that if we were living in Nazi Germany she would have been put into a camp because she was a twin.

This made a deep impression on me, but there would have been a wildly different symmetry in later years. I would have never believed that I was part Jewish, and this probably would have made life easier in some ways. I would have never had to endure the suspicious questioning from people who didn't believe me.

Back ground for any one reading this and being offended - if you are offended anyway I have no sympathy for you anyway - This is my life not YOURS!!!

My bio mother believed that my father was of Hebrew linage. I understand my father told my mother this and a lot of people he knew at the time because he was tired of being verbaly and physicaly assulted for being German. (German with certain views which will go unmentioned here.)

My bio mother included the information of my ethnic linage on the adoption information - thus at the age of 23 I learned this information when my addopted parents let me see the papers.

I think the first thing my bio father asked me when I first called him was what my bio mother might have told me about my linage. These things my father told me were quite unexpected and I came to learn that I have realitves who fought on both sides of WW2. My Jewish heritage years came suddenly to an end.

All in all I was forutnate to have been adopted by the parents that I had. Of course every addopted child always wonders what life would be like to have been raised by one's bio parents, and I wonder about those alternatives too.

Life is always stranger than fiction - as it is often said...

Posted by Stan @ 11:05:2005:07:55 PM CST

"Darth" actually called YOU first, responding to the letter you had written him.

BTW, I helped Stan locate his father through some expert amateur sleuthing abilities...Stan, you should write about the whole Physics thing some time and how we came to find "Darth". This is a prime example of life being stranger than fiction, but like fiction nonetheless. The twists and turns it takes are so ironic. It almost seems like something that could be in a novel or movie. It must be written down, it's too good not to!

Posted by Ann @ 11:05:2005:08:23 PM CST

Perhaps you might let me use your blog to write some sort of auto - blogography. Some kind of title like 'My 17 Years as an Unauthorized Jew'

Ideas?

Posted by Stan @ 11:05:2005:08:28 PM CST

LOL! Somehow I see this as a Woody Allen production!

You're welcome to use this journal for whatever you want, Stan. It's yours too.

Posted by Ann @ 11:05:2005:08:32 PM CST

OK, so we got "Darth", what do we call the other feller?

Posted by Ann @ 11:05:2005:08:36 PM CST

'Woody Allen' wow that quite a complement. I could only hope that my writing would be as sinister as Woody's is funny.

How about 'Great Scott'?

Posted by Stan @ 11:05:2005:08:40 PM CST

LOL! Great Scott is perfect on many levels!

I was thinking about the Baron Harkonen from Dune. In a way that would be in keeping with the evil villain space fiction theme we started with old Darth.

Posted by Ann @ 11:05:2005:08:48 PM CST

There is no way that my adopted father could even come close to being the Baron - maybe as comic parody of the Baron. It's very difficult to cast him in any sort of sinister villain role, because he's more of a humerous personality.

Great Scott is more comical and with a serious expression - that fits my dad best.

Posted by Stan @ 11:05:2005:09:14 PM CST

Awwwrrggccch!

Yup..I s'pose!

Posted by Ann @ 11:05:2005:09:18 PM CST

I wish I would've taken phonetics in college just so that I could simulate in writing using a phonetic alphabet the strange sounds that people make.

Posted by Ann @ 11:05:2005:09:20 PM CST

In the Woody Allen version of your life, you'd be getting barmitzvahed at age 33.

Does Ann need to retire for the night yet? She's getting silly.

Posted by Ann @ 11:05:2005:09:22 PM CST

There is no way that my adopted father could even come close to being the Baron - maybe as comic parody of the Baron. It's very difficult to cast him in any sort of sinister villain role, because he's more of a humerous personality.

Great Scott is more comical and with a serious expression - that fits my dad best.

Posted by Stan @ 11:05:2005:09:24 PM CST

All the double posting errors is reallly funny!

Posted by Ann @ 11:05:2005:09:25 PM CST

Father relationships are wierd, no matter what. Question- Ann, did your dad not know that you were not totally in the car? Did he do it on purpose? This is really disturbing me. I thought my (ex-step) dad was over the top! My mom calls him Saint John.

God, some days I hate him. Some days I feel like calling him up and saying," know what? I don't forgive you. I don't care if (you think) your different now. I don't forgive you and you made my life miserable."

Maybe I need to try your comedic approach to the whole situation. I don't know who I hate as much as him to pit against, though; when I'm in the hating mood that is.

Ever see hope floats? I did again last night. Birdie says childhood is something you spend the rest of your life trying to get over. Good line. If that's true, my kids are so going to hate me!

Posted by Dawn @ 11:06:2005:12:46 PM CST

I'm obviously not the only one with fatherissues..

Aside from that, I used to have a big crush on Darth Vader, but was extremely disappointed when he took off the helmet.

Posted by Nico @ 11:06:2005:12:51 PM CST

No, Nico, you're definitely not alone in the fatherissue department!

"I used to have a big crush on Darth Vader, but was extremely disappointed when he took off the helmet."

LOL!

Posted by Ann @ 11:06:2005:01:46 PM CST

Dawn, he had no idea I hadn't completely gotten in the car, i.e., he didn't do it on purpose to hurt me, he just did it because he thought I'd gotten in and his mind was on church and being a good Catholic and whatever went through his mind after mass (certainly not being a good father). I wasn't hurt, fortunately (or else I wouldn't have been able to walk 1.5-2 miles home), maybe I just ran my pantyhose ro something, but I'd have preferred I'd been hurt, and afterwards he would've said how much he loves me and how horribly sorry he was and gave me a hug. But nothing like that. They followed me in the car, trying to get me to ride with them, and I'm sure he said he was sorry at some point, but the sorry was so cold, even though he knew he was totally at fault due to his negligence.

Oh, and if you can't think of someone you hate enough to put in an Uncelebrity Deathmatch, I have a bunch of old art professors you can borrow! (From the UW, of course, CSU was actually pretty good for the most part)

I'm not familiar with Hope Floats, is it a movie? I think I've heard that line before though. Sounds a bit Woody Allen-ish.

Posted by Ann @ 11:06:2005:01:56 PM CST

Yeah, hope floats is a cheesy sandra bullock movie. Miss grown up prom queen of some small town in TX is told on one of those tv shows that her BF is doing her husband and she goes home to mommy. Very cheesy, but last night I musta been in the mood...

Hmmm... professors huh?

Now I get it, about the car and all. It seems almost funny, making them follow you. Wow, that takes distraction to a whole new level. I had a friend whose father ran her over after she fell out the truck door cuz she was trying to get out! Not his fault though. He was trying to save her from her psycho boyfriend. She just didn't wanna be saved. Too bad we couldn't all have dads who loved us so much they ran us over. (btw, she wasn't hurt too bad). Wow. I must be tired.

Posted by Dawn @ 11:06:2005:11:59 PM CST

Actually, I didn't want them to follow me, I just wanted them to leave me alone so I could walk home and work off my adrenaleine (sp?). But yeah, looking back on it, I can see where it could be comical.

Posted by Ann @ 11:07:2005:09:21 AM CST

What kind of psycho father would run over his own daughter. I think if women want psycho boyfriends let them have them. Harming your own child becaue they have bad taste in the oposit sex is just stupid beyond stupid.

Posted by Stan @ 11:07:2005:08:35 PM CST

LOL. He didn't mean to run her over, she jumped out of a moving truck and landed under it and then the tire, breaking her leg.

Did people not believe you were jewish cuz of your looks? I'm 1/4 polish Jew and am pail, blond haired and blue eyed. My grandma (100%) is darker with black hair and dark eyes.

People can be so stupid. Nothing wrong with being German either.

That's so funny about the woody allen 33yr old barmitzvah thing. My gradma and some of her friends got Batmitzvahed a few years ago as a group thing. Can you imagine learning Hebrew at that age? (I'm almost 30, to give some age perspective.) BTW, I was raised by holy rollin' born again christians, not my cool jewish Daddy Bruce.

Posted by dawn @ 11:08:2005:01:10 AM CST

Re: the people not believing that Stan was Jewish, which, in hindsight--they were right! When I was first starting to get to know him, I always thought he had a Jewish/Italian look despite the fact he was blond and blue and came from a small town in eastern Colorado (that's before I knew he was adopted). His biomom is in fact 1/2 Sicilian Italian--the other half is some combination of British Isles...hard to know exactly what because that part of the family came over with the Mayflower (which would mean if Stan and I did have kids, their predominant ancestral line would be British). That's where the blond comes from. The Jewish look, mainly the nose, does indeed come from his formerly "pretending-to-be-Jewish" German biofather who also looks a bit Italian as well. The guy looks like a cross between Alan Ginsberg and Francis Ford Copolla.

Oh, and here's an odd part...Stan's biomom and dad came from New England originally (where his biomom still lives), which is where my dad came from. In fact when I was 6-7, I lived about 50 miles from where Stan's mom lives. Then 2000 miles later, Stan and I meet.

Posted by Ann @ 11:08:2005:08:07 AM CST

That's really cool. Guess you guys were destined to meet! God, isn't New England beautiful this time of year? Montana has two seasons, winter and summer. Oh well.

Posted by Dawn @ 11:08:2005:09:57 PM CST

Actually, Wisconsin had a really beautiful fall this year...I've never seen so much color here. And in Colorado...the aspens were even reddish! We were fortunate that we went to Colorado in September (earlier than usual) this year so we got to experience both fall in the Rockies and fall in Wisconsin. Usually, we go to CO in October, so we end up missing the fall here, as well as the fall in CO!

The last time I was in New England was in 2002 and it was a bit late in the season for much color, and a bit dreary. Before that, I haven't been there since the 60s! But yeah, I do remember color from back then.

I really like seasons. Is it because Montana is so northern or because it has a semi-arid climate that it doesn't have seasons? Colorado's seasons were pretty askew too from what I remember...snow in June and suntanning outside in February.

Posted by Ann @ 11:09:2005:08:58 AM CST

Eastern MT is dry, has few trees (except river bottom, where thankfully we live) and is either grassland or badlands also called makoshika. (http://montanakids.com/db_engine/presentations/presentation.asp?pid=70&sub=Makoshika)
So the terrain is really rough all over the place. The seasons here are severe. I 'm not so sure about western mt, but mountains and trees do make a difference.
Its not unusual to see snow in may or june. If you ever get this way, places to see are Medora, ND- an old west town in the heart of Theodore Roosevelt National Park- many activities to do, bison to see, etc. (http://www.medorand.com or medora.org) Then a few miles this way we have Makoshika state park (here in glendive). We have dinosours! The park is just beautiful. I couldn't find any pictures, but if you search I'm sure you could find some that do it justice.
Laramie and CO were pretty, too, but they remind me of New York. I have lived in the badlands for 15 years and feel comfortable here, you know? It's a pitty, the locals take it all for granted. My husband never went to the park until after we met, and he has lived in the area his whole life. I've never been to Wisconsin. Is it grassland there, also?

Posted by Dawn @ 11:09:2005:10:36 AM CST

No, it has lush, rolling hills, forests and lakes. Supposedly there are even more lakes in Wisconsin than the more famous "Land of 10,000 Lakes"--Minnesota. It does have prairies, but not grasslands (when I think of grasslands, I think of miles and miles of desolate grass-covered plains, like northeastern Colorado, and South Dakota along the I-90 corridor.)

South of here, Illinois is flat and boring. Wisconsin is very pretty.

When you say that Laramie and Colorado were like New York, in what way? When I moved from New York to Colorado when I was 10, it was a culture shock to me, so I see them as very different.

It's really strange when one has a preconception of what a certain area is like, and then you travel there and find out it is completely different. Like in 2002 when we went through central Pennsylvania on our way back from New England, I was amazed how mountainous it was, with dark, black rock hillsides. I had no idea Pennsylvania was like that. And when we travelled to New Mexico this past spring (Roswell) I was surprised how BORING that area was. I thought all New Mexico was like the western part of the state (gorgeous in a classic western movie way). But the central and eastern part is really flat and boring.

Posted by Ann @ 11:09:2005:11:03 AM CST

I grew up in the adirondak mountains. So when I was in the mountains in Wyoming and on the way to Fort Collins (along 289, not the interstate), it felt much more like upstate New York, terrrain wise, than MonDak.

I understand culture shock. I don't think anyone can know what that is until they experience it. Montana was so visually different, the climate so much more dry, and elevation may have played a part, that my eyes hurt. Do you know what I mean? My whole body needed to adjust to the difference in surroundings, and it took MONTHS to barely adjust. I was 15 and it felt like I was swimming. I have never actually done it, but it was like a *trip* that lasted a long time.

I assumed all of NM was like in the movies, all Navajo and everything, lol! And I have never been there. I guess Minnesota has a bunch of "rivers" also. My husband laughed. That's not a river, its a creek! The yellowstone river flows thru Glendive. (http://www.bigskyfishing.com/River-Fishing/South-MT-Rivers/yellowstone-river/photo_gallery/YellowstoneRiverPhotographs/)
That really long obnoxious link is to some photos.Uhoh. Gotta go!

Posted by Dawn @ 11:09:2005:01:58 PM CST

I don't remember the Adirondaks too well because we were in NY (Syracuse region) only 2 years and my dad didn't take us anywhere much. But the difference would be in scale. Even though the road you describe, 287 from Laramie to Ft. Collins is in the foothills, the distance between hills is so vast, but out east everything is closer together. I think around Red Feather lakes NW of Fort Collins would be rather Adirondaksish...lots of trees.

Yeah, states like CO, WY and NM are vastly different on the eastern sides than they are in the mountains...like two different planets.

Maybe my cultureshock was more cultural than geographic. In NY I blended right in, even though I moved there before the 3rd grade. But in CO I had a hard time adapting. Maybe because I came in during the middle of the semester and I was older (5th grade). Bad times...not want to think about it much!

Posted by Ann @ 11:09:2005:02:14 PM CST

Ny is awesome. The midwest, IMO, is less tolerant to new people sometimes. Back in 91, all people wore out here were Bum and Enuf shirts (very expensive) roper jeans (which are made in like a length of 36! 36! In my dreams. I'm 5'2") I didn't fit in. Ma still doesn't. She is such a hippie. I think she's a bit goth, too, she just doesn't know it.

Wisconsin sounds pretty. Maybe I'll get that way someday. We just got back from Nebraska. And I now think that being a truck driver sucks. Thank god its not my job. I don't wanna go again. Nebraska looks just like eastern MT and South Dakota (minus the black hills). I am only awake because Bruce thinks it is time to be awake. Night.

Posted by Dawn @ 11:11:2005:02:02 AM CST

I think it depends on where in the midwest as far as people being less tolerant. Here in Madison (which ties for Berkely, CA for the most liberal city in the country), it is a very tolerant and open community, to the point that intolerance is not tolerated--the irony. All of Urban Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, are all pretty tolerant places. But when you get into places further west and more rural, the tolerance starts to disintegrate. I guess Colorado, at least the eastern part of it, is classified as the midwest by some, and yes, I felt that was pretty intolerant. Although I admit, when I was living in Colorado as a college/student adult, I found the people we associated with had a certain sense of humor that is hard to come by here in Madison. Sort of a wry, irreverant, yet smart humor--I can't put my finger on it precisely. But when we moved here, that humor was lacking in the people we were meeting. People seemed to take "issues" more seriously here, so you couldn't make fun of certain things. Like I said, there was no tolerance for intolerance, or even for irreverance.

When we travel along the I-80 corridor in Nebraska, we have to cut over to Highway 30 to avoid the boredom. It's more interesting seeing the little towns, rather than the miles and miles of nothing but dry grass, scrub trees, and highway.

Posted by Ann @ 11:12:2005:09:22 AM CST

By Stan @ 05:43 PM CST:11:05:05 ..::Link::..

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preincarnations

Latest Achives (April 2006–Present)

Four Years of old entries before this journal blew up the second time (April 2002–April 2006)

even older entries before this journal blew up the first time (December 2001–April 2002)

even moldier eyeblog archives (November 2000–December 2001)

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